Is there equality among those in Heaven?

Thanks david, I found that catechism

As is stated in the Catechism (847):

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

Thanks David. that's new info for me!!

To be fair here, it is not Catholic teaching (the largest church in the world) that only those instructed in Christianity can go to Heaven. Catholic belief is that we cannot know what happens to those who never heard the name of Christ, but it must be presumed that they are in Heaven.

Regard to that, Christianity believe that EVERYONE prior to Christs' death is forgiven of thier sins by his sacrifice. So it can be argued that all wars and death in God's name prior to Jesus was acceptable because God knew they were going to heaven by the sacrifice of Jesus eventually. However, the blood can only cover those who accept it willingly A.D. except for babies who are proclaimed innocent, except for those sects that require immediate baptism after birth due to original sin.

In all religions/practices/beliefs, blood sacrifice is the strongest "magic" there is, and self-sacrifice even more so. Heck, Harry Potter lived cause his mother gave her life for him...

yeah...me too... I particularly like that you have to accept Jesus to get in... so the whole what to do with the people that died before Jesus thing???

I love Shaun's LDS solution... baptizing the names of dead people to promote them into Heaven... I can't even come up with words to describe the feelings this evokes in me.

Ouch Nick, that was harsh! The thing that has always gotten me is that 2 men of equal innocense, one christian, one native tribal religion, and only the one who was introduced to christianity goes to heaven? Kinda sad from where I'm standing. I'd like to think it's what you do, not who you know that gets you a pass to paridise.

to shaun's point, though... i think this issue is limited to the christian heaven. I thought of doing it as "equality in the after-life" to bring in eastern religions, etc., but I don't think that works - for several reasons including the obvious that it's the christian heaven and not the christian hell we're talking about, nor the distinction between the two.

I'd also like to point out that while the heaven and hell dichotomy exists to manipulate the masses, it's really depressing that any of you guys could really believe that most of the people on earth are condemned to eternal burning and torture with no possibilitiy of redemption once you're in hell. It reads like a bad story... because that's all it is... but you guys really believe that!!!

Sorry... I don't mean to start the debate here. I'm going to let this bad boy fly and we'll see where it goes.

Yes, I would answer no to this topic if it was opened up.

I say let's do it as is.  I am interested.  If nothing else it may be a cool way to share the beliefs of different religious denominations.  I could tell you all some cool insights from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--and I have always been curious about Eastern (i.e., non-Christian) religious views of the afterlife.  I am also shamefully unversed in Catholic post-mortal doctrine.  So, bottom line, I think we should open it up as a topic.

Which is why this issue may be circular unless we speak of a specific religious creed.

Besides, can we argue for heaven in a capacity outside Christianity? My concept of Heaven might be equality filled and based off of combination of greek and norse teachings and have a special place for my fish that died over the past decade (all treated equally of course!). There are no writings to debate in the bible about that.

You may want to specify whose heaven you refer to, is my point after all that.

Mark;

        Very good point indeed...and from a perspective on this, it can get quite deep.

I'd like to point out that thinking less of someone does not equate to unequal treatment necessarily. I think less of some people for "shady jobs" or questionable recreational activities, but do not treat them any differently...

As a manager, I didn't treat my employees any different whether or not we saw eye to eye on many things...

The problem, of course, is the last part of the issue question-"that are not mentioned in the Bible?"

Now we can post this issue if you like, and we can debate it until the cows come home (something tells me we will-certainly you will!), but remember this: While some Christian groups eschew the notion of a Heavenly Hierarchy, I have no problem accepting it, it is part of Catholic doctrine. You are very liable to create several debates within the debate, none of which have to do with the question at hand, and a great many of which will have to do with doctrinal differences within Christianity about the nature of scripture and divine revelation.

Also, remember that Christians (unlike Muslims) do not claim to have great knowledge of what Heaven will be like, only that there will be no suffering, pain, war, or illness there and that those who are there will live in a state of peace with God. Scripture does tell us that there will be no night in Heaven. You may be making the same mistake that we all do at some point (only since you do not the notion of the supernatural to begin with, this is greatly aplified in your case) of trying to apply our wordly conception of life to the other-worldly.

but David, when Jesus says that someone will be "called least"... he's clearly saying something that contradicts you... regardless, while we can disagree on the point, you bring up an important matter... you are corrupting my intention with this issue. Obviously, you aren't going to be equal with Jesus and Mary, etc. - as everyone will look up to them and not to you. But will you be the equal of your neighbor? And Jesus says that if he observed the sabbath (#4), and you did not, that you will be less than him - that's my opinion - we just need the issue to focus on this difference. How about,

Is there equality among those in Heaven that are not mentioned in the Bible?

And... let me warn you that I plan to post evidence that Jesus says "no"....

I cannot speak for the religious doctrines of others on the matter of whether or not there is a Heavenly Hierarchy.

It is Catholic belief that such a hierarchy does exist, but that it is not, as earthly governments tend to be, a hierarchy of inequality, it merely denotes people's place in the salvific plan (i.e. Mary as "Mother of God" and "Queen of Heaven and Earth.")

There is total equality at the feet of Jesus, because no person in Heaven is God but God..and before God, all are equal because we are not God.

Shaun is right about the three levels of Heaven, and St. Paul saying that in a vision he was taken to the Third Heaven. Dante speaks of this in the Paradisio.

Conviction... opinion... either is fine. Not every issue has to be debated, some are interesting because they are informative. I think the popular conception among Christians is that when you go to Heaven you're going to sit at table with god, etc. whereas it would be interesting for them to see that Jesus says there's a pecking order when you get there too.

So you'd answer "no" to this issue if we approved it, Shaun?

I don't know that the matter is an issue of debate--more of conviction.  I suppose you can argue about what the Bible teaches on the matter, though the "Good  Book" is admittedly vague concerning the afterlife.  The topic might be interesting for Bible scholars, but non-religious people might get bored quickly with it unless they are looking for a religious belief themselves.

Just out of curiosity, why exactly are you looking for "equality" in the Christian heaven?  Is there someplace that says we will all be equal in heaven?  You might be fascinated to know that there is actually a reference to three different "levels."  See 2 Cor. 12: 2.

[disclaimer... i'm very much an atheist]

so... I was reading the sermon on the mount and it seems that JC says that there are two types - or a range - of classes of whatevers in Heaven.

Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

So much for christian redemption. At any rate, it seems clear that he's saying some whatevers (not to say people or souls) are "more equal than others"... eh?