Should public schools require students to wear uniforms?

and, we already did. never mind.

I think we're ready to roll on this and put the ugly campaign season behind us.

I agree with the emerging consensus!

hysterical.  

To reiterate for my Swift Boaters

I can't see how this current revision can't work. 

Oh my gosh!  Resolution!

If it needs to be said, I'm all for the latest.  :-D

issue prior to revisions:

To reiterate for my Swift Boaters: I completely agree. A "dress code" issue is untenable here, it's a non-issue. It's got to be uniforms.

At the very least, "institute" has to go.  Schools have dress codes.  Whether it is "no gang colors" or "shirts and shoes must be worn at all times," or detailed rules on colors of shirts and lengths of skirts, they have them.

This discussion has been spread out over a long time and I only just re-read the whole thing, I see I've been quite repetitive, my apologies.

In a nutshell:  I think reasonable, mainstream politicians can (and do) disagree about school uniforms.  I don't think any reasonable, mainstream politician will argue that schools shouldn't have the right to forbid gang colors or nudity.

Look, I regret my earlier statement. If I knew then what I know now, we wouldn't have even had this issue in the first place.

Jenna made a good point and changed my mind.... so.... I don't really like this issue as is. I think we should revise it. I'm not sure we're all in agreement.

that's hysterical ... esperanto is a flipflopper.  totally cool - i do it too.  that's what happens when you've got multiple personalities. i'm fine with this issue as is and agree that we should approve it.  mr. esperanto?

Wow, who would have thought this was a hot debate?  It's like the next Iraq in here.

Just to bust his chops I want to point out this flip flop...

 

esperanto
2/3/2007 11:39:57 AM 

Do you see why "dress code" is too broad?

esperanto
1/21/2007 3:31:17 PM

I like that this issue is broader than just "uniforms." Good issue, I think it's fine as is.

I think we should cover this and it shold be left alone as is.

(Er, just wanted to note that I'd honestly forgotten about this one and wasn't trying to be snotty by ending up with a suggestion so close to my original... just consistent, I guess!  :-D)

I do think that the dress code issue can be interesting as its own thing, with an emphasis on decency, what kids should be wearing (are "message" t-shirts too much and when, are micro-minis too much, how high of heels should be allowed, etc.), what the role of schools are in squelching "creativity," etc.   I just see significant differences between those two issues, though I recognize there is overlap.

I agree, and that's a good way to put it.

Suggestions on phrasing?

My latest attempt:

Should schools require that their students wear uniforms?
-  Yes
-  No

We can still differentiate between public and private if necessary; I think that generally (as in my example below) stands will be about uniforms, not uniforms-in-public-schools or uniforms-in-private-schools.

We tend to want to avoid questions that sound like they belong in a survey, i.e., almost all questions in the second person.

What it comes down to, for me, is that I don't see any meaningful debate emerging from an issue about dress codes, even "strict" dress codes. Who has come out in favor of allowing children to wear gang insignia in school, outside of, well, gang members? I just don't see it. The uniforms question takes this debate to the level where people actually have intelligent reasons for feeling one way or another, as opposed to the knee-jerk "Keep our children safe!" reaction.

I did a quick Google search for "politicians who endorse school uniforms" to get some ideas on wording, found this:

In a recent speech on "basic values," Bob Dole referred to the "plague of illegitimacy" that he says is sweeping the country. Dole also supports uniforms and curfews, plus locking up juvenile offenders in adult prisons and punishing unwed teenage mothers by cutting off their welfare benefits. Bill Clinton, posturing as the stern-but-fair First Daddy, goes out of his way to endorse school uniforms and curfews. And it's still early in the campaign.

This is what I'm going for -- what politicians might be saying about the issue (in addition to other people, but want to include the politicians).  So, how do we word the stand so that the above can be useful evidence?

"Do you endorse school uniforms?", I guess...

When I tried the same search with "dress codes", I didn't get much, but followed some breadcrumbs here which might also yield some useful terminology (by the way it reinforces that schools DO have dress codes so it definitely has to be modified some way if we go with that phrasing).

Ok, I get the freedom to do as they wish aspect in terms of public vs. private.

Maybe, "Should public schools enforce sartorial standards of decency?"

Ew, no.

Um, "Should public schools ensure that their students are dressed appropriately?"

Gawd, still vague.

At any rate, something along those lines, and then, separately,

"Do school uniforms have a positive affect on student achievement?"

Hmm, not quite happy about that but I think the more we talk about what we each originally had in mind, the more the issues diverge.

My high school had a dress code: you couldn't wear hats in class, and you couldn't wear a T-shirt that said "Fuck" on it. Fine. "No shirt, no shoes, no service" is also a dress code.

Do you see why "dress code" is too broad?

I could deal with "strict dress codes," if that's a workable compromise, but it's a little vague (like, "no shirt, no shoes, no school for life" would be wicked strict, but not what we're talking about). Something like that, maybe?

here's my problem with not raising "public" in the issue.  people may say yes private schools should do what they want and public should not so we are not being factually accurate if we simply say "schools". second, there is a big issue about how short girls skirts can be, whether they can wear short shorts, printed tee-shirts, goth clothes,etc. in school.  this issue is much broader than uniforms.  i think we need to keep it open to dress codes because that is the heart of the debate.

That would be fine.  I maintain that when the issue is discussed it's about the efficiacy (or lack thereof) of uniforms, no matter what the context.  (Do school uniforms have a positive effect on behavior?  Attendance?  Educational achievement?  Etc.)  There are studies (that could be cited by public figures) that don't differentiate between public and private schools, just between schools with uniform policies and schools without.  It doesn't seem like it makes enough of a difference to single out public schools as opposed to private schools -- just "schools" covers the issue fine.

But I'd rather get the issue approved and start looking for stands than quibble. 

Jenna makes a good point: "dress codes" is way too broad. I'm all for a change over to "uniforms." How about this:

Should public schools require student uniforms?

Short, to the point. I don't think the difference between public and private schools is relevant. When 99% of public figures are talking about school uniforms, they are talking about public school. I'm not aware of any big movement to reform the private school system and increase discipline via uniforms, or conversely to end the cruel practice of student uniforms at Blessed Virgin Mary High School.

Hi, I was directed here from this topic, which is very similar but has a different emphasis.

In terms of "dress codes" vs. "uniforms," my comment on the other topic was that dress codes vary widely and can be as simple as "no hats."  "Uniforms" on the other hand are more about everyone wearing dark blue pants and white shirts, or whatever.  As such I think they are different issues.  (Especially, I think that most all public schools DO currently have dress codes of some sort.)

So perhaps this one could become, "Should public schools require that students wear uniforms?"

I think it's an issue that goes beyond public schools vs. private schools, though... which takes us right back to my initial wording. 

Whatever works, though.

I like that this issue is broader than just "uniforms." Good issue, I think it's fine as is.

I like it!